Willie Rennie must provide evidence of SNP-English Democrats link
In his speech to federal conference this week Scottish Lib
Dem leader Willie Rennie made quite a startling claim.
He said:
“We’ve already heard from some English nationalists that
they want Scotland out. They don’t value
our United Kingdom. These are the allies of Alex Salmond’s SNP in their fight
to break up Britain. They are working together, attending each other’s
conferences and sharing ideas.”
That is a huge accusation to make and naturally I began asking
questions.
A member of staff soon alerted me to the “facts”. A singular MP, namely Angus MacNeil, attended
a conference of the English Democrats five years ago. That MP is also alleged to have retweeted 11
tweets originating with the English Democrats between October 2011 and February
2012.
Firstly, let me deal with this ludicrous idea that you are what
you retweet. I personally retweet plenty
I find of interest, even if I disagree with the point being made. I retweet statements made by the Tories, the
SNP, Labour, the Green Party, UKIP...even, on occasion, the BNP. It doesn’t make me sympathetic. It doesn’t even mean I am in any way “sharing
ideas”, other than bringing what is already on the most public of public forums
to the attention of my twitter followers.
I have tried to locate these tweets to discover something of
their nature and context. Unfortunately
I cannot either locate them or find anyone who can. This last point is quite concerning. I would have imagined that any party leader
making a speech at a national conference would take efforts to ensure that
claims he makes are backed up.
There appears to be no blog or other online record in which
these tweets are repeated verbatim.
Therefore, it is unreasonable to make suggestions about the significance
of Angus’s retweets. Until someone can
reproduce for me these tweets and demonstrate categorically that they show the
SNP MP to be endorsing the English Democrats’ less savoury policies, I refuse
to accept that anything improper has occurred.
In fact, given that the English Democrats support both Scottish independence and the creation of an English parliament (both causes towards which I have sympathies) it is perfectly possible that I may have retweeted either those same tweets or others written by members of the English Democrats. I for one do not check the profile of every writer of every comment I retweet.
It is true that Angus MacNeil attended an English Democrats
conference. That is not necessarily
unusual, in that the party at the time (five years ago) was relatively unheard
of and were most notable for being part of the CEP (Campaign for an English Parliament). In fact, at that time I’m not even sure some
of the policies for which they are now renowned had even been formulated. What is odd is that Angus appears to have
spoken at this event .
That is something that I would not personally do, but that
is in 2012 when the realities of what the English Democrats stand for are more
widely recognised. I’d like to know why
Mr MacNeil was willing to speak at this conference, but again I’m not willing
to take this in itself as evidence of “sharing ideas” or of this party being an
“ally of Alex Salmond”.
What has also transpired is that this claim seems to have its
basis in something written on a blog maintained by an English Democrats
activist, Robin Tilbrook. I’m quite
annoyed at Robin actually for reproducing a picture of Willie on his blog
without having the courtesy to credit me as the photographer, but that’s a separate
issue. The post in question is basically
an attack on Plaid Cymru, which he feels should have been more supportive in
causes such as the English Constitutional Convention and CEP. About the SNP, he says this:
“[we have] friendly relations with the Scottish National
Party.”
That sounds interesting, so I read on:
“ We have been pleased to welcome the SNP’s Angus MacNeil MP
to speak at a recent Annual Party Conference and our Vice Chairman was welcomed
by leaders of the SNP in Edinburgh and her hand was shaken, during a BBC
Newsnight programme, by Alex Salmond.”
And that, my friends is that. That is the entire case on which Willie
Rennie’s argument stands: some English Democrat propaganda, attempting to glean
some undeserved respectability by associating itself with Alex Salmond and his
party. There is no evidence, as Willie
Rennie suggests, that English Democrats are invited to SNP conferences and are
sharing ideas at leadership – or indeed any other – level. There is no alliance, no proof of “working
together” collaboratively. As for the
English Democrats’ Vice-chair shaking hands with SNP leaders – this was in an entirely
unofficial capacity and on Newsnight. On
the few occasions I’ve been interviewed or debated in a public forum I’ve
always been courteous to others talking part.
Suggesting this was some kind of official welcome or extension of
friendship on the part of Alex Salmond towards the English Democrats is
stretching credibility to breaking point.
I've personally shaken Alex Salmond's hand. What does that prove? I'd be interested in seeing the relevant episode of Newsnight (again, if this evidenced any kind of relationship between the two parties I'd have imagined it would have been seized upon some time ago).
This story – or, rather, this allegation – has in fact no credibility
whatsoever. If these tweets were so
offensive, and Angus’s apparent support so controversial, why was nothing made
of them at the time? Also, why does
attendance at a conference five years ago take so long to become news?
What I am disappointed in is that this “news” was not broken
by a Lib Dem blogger or even Better Together.
It emanates from the very top of our party, in a speech given by the
leader and supported by his staff. In a
misguided quest to blacken the name of the SNP and portray them as extremists
(a word Willie Rennie used elsewhere in his speech), Rennie also gives undue
credibility to English Democrats and their rather ludicrous propaganda. That the source for his information is a
barely credible blog is simply mindblowing.
What leader of any political party makes this kind of accusation without
having evidence to hand?
Even Tony Blair had his dossiers, however dodgy.
Willie Rennie, after making this claim so publicly, now needs
to produce the evidence to back it up. On
the evidence produced so far, the English Democrats are no more allies of the
SNP than I am a supporter of the Labour Party, whose conference I am attending
on Sunday. I am offended, not merely
because the party strategy appears unchanged since that ridiculous smear cartoon last November, but because it is the leader himself that saw fit to
make the disgraceful link between the SNP and extreme English nationalism
without ensuring that he had sufficient evidence on which to base it.
What this incident has done is to further undermine my faith
in our party leadership. In so many ways
I like Willie Rennie, but I cannot and will not continue to support any leader
who is willing to make extraordinary claims on the flimsiest of evidence. His argument appears intellectually
unsustainable and doesn't deserve my respect - or anyone else's for that matter.
So please, Mr Rennie, show us the hard, definitive,
indelible evidence that the SNP are in cahoots with the English Democrats. Let us
see these offending tweets. Tell us when
English Democrat representatives have met with senior SNP members. Explain exactly what you mean when you refer
to “allies” and “working together”. You have to provide this evidence because your personal credibility now depends on it.
And, if you can’t do that, please issue an apology to Mr MacNeil. And then to your party for misleading its conference.
Comments
Since then the civic nationalists in the EDP who wanted to create a party in the style of the SNP have fled and have been replaced by ex-BNP members.
Once bitten twice shy for Angus as he never went back but he should have done a little more research into the EDP before he went. Even then there were rumblings about its links to some of the more right wing elements in England.
But while I think Angus was unwise to have attended and spoken at this conference, this is far from evidence of the kind of relationship alleged by Willie.
I can't imagine why they would be welcome at SNP conferences. However, what happened 5 years ago, when the EDF was little known, and seemed to be wanting the same thing for England as the SNP wants for Scotland, perhaps Angus was on a fact finding trip.
I'd like to know what the tweets said.
If the SNP does have some links with EDF, or course I, and most, if not all other members, would want to know.
From what I can see their goal may have something in common with ours but their means of achieving it is very different.
At this point I'd like to own up to, despite being firmly on the left of the political spectrum, having had a long chat with Annabel Goldie and having shaken her hand. I'd further say that I found her charming, entertaining and extremely intelligent.
Tris - I too met Annabel (being her Lib Dem opponent in the 2011 election). I found her to be just as you described. That in itself says everything about Annabel as a person and absolutely nothing about my political sympathies.
I can understand why Angus MAY have been there, especially if he was interested in the (then) developing campaign for and English Parliament or the English Constitutional Convention which the EDs supported. I would be interested Angus's explanation, but ultimately it's Willie Rennie that made the accusation (openly on national TV) and he really does have to explain how he's arrived at such a startling conclusion.
Like you, I feel strongly that this does need clearing up. As a Lib Dem, I fear our conference has been mislead - and that's not something a party leader should be guilty of.
228 English Homes in Wales were fired bombed by Plaid Cymru - now that is extreme !!!!!!!!
—————————————–
16 February 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Cameron hints at further devolved powers to Scotland should they vote to remain in the Union…as for the English, not a word was heard!
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
2:31 PM – 16 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
—————————————–
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Scottish independence would be good for Liverpool, Alex Salmond says in Roscoe lecture – Liverpool L http://fb.me/16vSaFf1n
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
9:28 AM – 15 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
—————————————–
English Democrats @EnglishVoice
Congratulations to the English Darts team who have just won the Darts World Cup
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
10:35 PM – 5 Feb 12 via Facebook • Details
—————————————–
18th January 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice 13h
‘NO’ to Scots MPs Voting on English Matters http://fb.me/xNlGm8qN
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
—————————————–
16th January 2012
English Democrats @EnglishVoice 16 Jan
Amid the talk of Scottish independence, it’s now time to answer the English Question – Telegraph http://fb.me/12FpaNnge
Retweeted by AngusBMacNeilMP
—————————————–
14th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
OFGEM reports that energy suppliers profits have risen from £15 per customer in June to £125 today…the energy… http://fb.me/KujmFf3x
2 hours ago
—————————————–
13th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
As Alex Salmond warned only last year, voting for one of the LibLabCons will destroy the English Health Service. http://fb.me/FoExxTLY
—————————————–
11th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Scottish independence will reinforce our social union http://fb.me/11BKPEM5h
—————————————–
10th October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Alex Salmond: The days of Tory PMs telling Scotland what to do are over http://fb.me/1gwUEwujV
—————————————–
3rd October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
Brian Monteith: Scots unlikely to care much about conference – Scotsman.com http://fb.me/LUzDCT4C
—————————————–
3rd October 2011
EnglishVoice English Democrats
by AngusMacNeilMP
“If printing money (quantitative easing) produced wealth then counterfeiting wouldn’t be illegal”
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/willie-rennie-suicide-bomber/#comment-67926
they are, surprise surprise, completely innocuous! What is a once radical and progressive party like the "Liberal" now doing as cannon-fodder for the Lab/Con alliance?
As for Plaid Cymru's history - I am aware of some of the acts they committed in the 1970s but I'd hope they'd have moved on from that kind of strategy by now. Certainly I'm not going to defend Plaid. The purpose of my piece was to ask Willie Rennie to apologise over the smear, or else produce some evidence of the links he claimed between the SNP and (unspecified) right wing English nationalist groups in his speech.
For what it's worth, as a liberal I also share your vision for an English parliament, albeit for different reasons.
And would you mind crediting me for the photograph you reproduced on your blog?
He has misled conference and must apologise.
Yes!
Cut your hand off!
He is first and foremost an uber Clegg-loyalist.
He serves no other function than as an attack dog to smear the SNP.
This dirty politics by Rennie will come back and bite him in the arse.
The Scottish Liberal Democrats should be principled and call for the cancellation of the Trident renewal; support devo-max as set out in the Steel Commission, and cooperate with the SNP to replace the council tax with a progressive local income tax.
I'm wondering, a few weeks on from your post, if Rennie ever made any retraction or apologised.
Dear Mr Page,
I am sorry to see that I have inadvertently used a picture which I found on the internet which you say you took.
I am curious as to why you have attacked the English Democrats in the non specific but smeary way that you have. I suspect that you and I would not agree on many things and I have no problem with political knockabout but I would ask that you "condescend to particulars".
Yours sincerely
Robin Tilbrook
Chairman,
The English Democrats
My response is as follows:
Dear Robin,
I wasn't aware that I was attacking the English Democrats. I actually thought my piece was an attack on our Scottish leader, if attack it even was. More a criticism of his rather foolish accusations and how he chose to make them.
I made an official complaint about Mr Rennie after his speech, although I have no idea what action was taken.
As for smearing the English Democrats, I think that's a rather odd interpretation. Mr Rennie chose to smear you; I merely refer to "the English Democrats’ less savoury policies". No doubt you find some of our own policies such. I also refer to "some of the policies for which [you] are now renowned" - which are pretty much common knowledge and does not indicate agreement or disagreement with such policies, or in fact whether the views "for which you are renowned" are actually held by the party or simply attributed to it.
Clearly I do not share your political views on some key issues such as the EU and immigration, just as I know Angus McNeil does not. That is not actually the point. The point I was actually making is that Mr McNeil had every right to behave in the way he did and that he should not be associated with your policy commitments because of it. Neither should our leader be attempting to make associations between the SNP and the English Democrats or making lazy attempts to associate you with the worst expressions of English nationalism.
I suggest if you wish to complain about being smeared then you should be directing such complaints to Mr Rennie. I wonder at all that you should see fit to make any kind of comment on my supposed attack on your party given what is already "out there" and that I express agreement with some of your policies (e.g. an English parliament).
From a personal view, I disagree with your party's policy direction, as well I might being a liberal. I would, however, defend our right to express your views and for people of all political persuasions to listen to you, attend your conference or retweet your tweets without being subjected to the kind of smears emanating form Mr Rennie. That of course was the purpose of my piece and I am sorry that you seem unable to recognise this.
In regards the photograph, as a professional photographer I have no concerns about individuals using my photographs but would request an acknowledgement - it's the very least to expect given I make them available for anyone.
Yours sincerely,
Andrew Page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meibion_Glynd%C5%B5r